Post by stephen on Jun 27, 2024 15:29:46 GMT -5
I want to offer some thoughts on Revelation ch6 vv9-11.
This is the "Fifth Seal", of course, next in the series after the seals of the "Four Horsemen". It's a dialogue scene- a group of souls gathered "under the altar", complaining to God and getting a response.
Who are these people? John says they're martyrs; they've all been slain "for the word of God and for the witness they have borne". Since they're already dead, they're set aside from the main action. We can almost see them as commenting from the sidelines.
Where are they?
We can take the altar as an incense altar, the place where they make their prayer.
Or we can take it as a sacrificial altar, the place where their lives have notionally been "sacrificed".
In what sense are they "under the altar"?
I see no reason to go for the more bizarre interpretation, which puts them inside the hollow cavity (when were things ever kept inside the Old Testament altars?). I'm quite content with the best alternative, "at the foot of the altar"
When did they die?
I was arguing the case in a previous thread- "4 Horsemen-Why?"- that the opening of the seals would be God's response to the oppression of his people. If I'm right, that implies there must have been some sort of "oppression of God's people" as part of the background of this chapter. It would make sense if these martyrdoms were all part of that. In other words, they would have died before the beginning of ch6. In fact, their deaths would be the reason for what's happening in ch6.
John's first readers would probably have identified them with the victims of the most recent great persecution.
What are they asking for?
The key point here is that underneath the word "souls", what we're really looking at is the blood of the martyrs. It's the principle stated in Leviticus ch17 v11, "the life is in the blood", which is the basis of Old Testament sacrifice and much else.
The appeal in v10 comes from the line of thought that the blood of a murdered man appeals to God for justice. It goes right back to God's encounter with Cain, Genesis ch4 v10- "The voice of your brother's blood is crying to me from the ground".
The most direct precedent for the wording is Psalm 79. The psalmist cries in v5 "How long, O Lord?" and he adds, in v10, "Let the avenging of the outpoured blood of thy servants be known among the nations before our eyes." V10 of this chapter is showing just the same sentiment; "How long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?"
The setting of Psalm 79 (as we see from the opening words) is the Babylonian destruction of Solomon's Temple. If the "souls" here are quoting Psalm 79, that implies they've been experiencing something just as catastrophic. There's the same kind of anguish in their appeal.
At this point, though, the alert reader might be noticing something which looks like a contradiction. If the "Four Horsemen" have been God's response to the deaths of these people- which is what I've been arguing- why, then, do they still feel the need to appeal for justice? Isn't God already giving them justice?
My suggested answer is that they recognise, and welcome, the events of ch6 as the start of God's justice.
But what they're really looking for is the completion of God's justice.
That would mean the full destruction of evil power on the earth, and that's when they'll be satisfied.
The response they get from God is that they're given fresh robes and they're told to "rest until...". That is, they're told to wait. They must wait, in the first place, until a further batch of martyrs has been "made complete", and is ready to join them.
But as a response to the cry "How long?", as a response to an appeal for justice, the instruction to "wait" also implies that they're not immediately going to get the full vindication they're expecting.
We can see that as an advance warning of what happens at the beginning of ch7, when angels come out and hold back the destructive "four winds of the earth", which have been blowing on the earth all through ch6.
In other words, the process of destruction has been "put on hold". This opens up a time of "truce" in God's relationship with the world. This is the same "truce" which I was discussing in the thread "Silence in heaven".
Then the Beast builds up his power.
God makes his own preparations.
And the net result is the second batch of martyrs mentioned in v11.
For the church of John's own time, in the period immediately following a great persecution. this message would have two effects. It would deliver the promise that the recent martyrs would be vindicated. It would also explain why the vindication might be postponed (and the church of John's time had to wait a couple of centuries before persecution finally ceased).
When using this book as prophecy for the future, the implication seems to be that the cycle of "oppression-followed-by-God's-vengeance" would actually occur twice in the course of the book.
The first appearance of the cycle would be the "implied background of ch6" followed by ch6 itself.
The second appearance of the cycle would then be the persecution associated with the Beast, and the final destruction of the Beast.
This is the "Fifth Seal", of course, next in the series after the seals of the "Four Horsemen". It's a dialogue scene- a group of souls gathered "under the altar", complaining to God and getting a response.
Who are these people? John says they're martyrs; they've all been slain "for the word of God and for the witness they have borne". Since they're already dead, they're set aside from the main action. We can almost see them as commenting from the sidelines.
Where are they?
We can take the altar as an incense altar, the place where they make their prayer.
Or we can take it as a sacrificial altar, the place where their lives have notionally been "sacrificed".
In what sense are they "under the altar"?
I see no reason to go for the more bizarre interpretation, which puts them inside the hollow cavity (when were things ever kept inside the Old Testament altars?). I'm quite content with the best alternative, "at the foot of the altar"
When did they die?
I was arguing the case in a previous thread- "4 Horsemen-Why?"- that the opening of the seals would be God's response to the oppression of his people. If I'm right, that implies there must have been some sort of "oppression of God's people" as part of the background of this chapter. It would make sense if these martyrdoms were all part of that. In other words, they would have died before the beginning of ch6. In fact, their deaths would be the reason for what's happening in ch6.
John's first readers would probably have identified them with the victims of the most recent great persecution.
What are they asking for?
The key point here is that underneath the word "souls", what we're really looking at is the blood of the martyrs. It's the principle stated in Leviticus ch17 v11, "the life is in the blood", which is the basis of Old Testament sacrifice and much else.
The appeal in v10 comes from the line of thought that the blood of a murdered man appeals to God for justice. It goes right back to God's encounter with Cain, Genesis ch4 v10- "The voice of your brother's blood is crying to me from the ground".
The most direct precedent for the wording is Psalm 79. The psalmist cries in v5 "How long, O Lord?" and he adds, in v10, "Let the avenging of the outpoured blood of thy servants be known among the nations before our eyes." V10 of this chapter is showing just the same sentiment; "How long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?"
The setting of Psalm 79 (as we see from the opening words) is the Babylonian destruction of Solomon's Temple. If the "souls" here are quoting Psalm 79, that implies they've been experiencing something just as catastrophic. There's the same kind of anguish in their appeal.
At this point, though, the alert reader might be noticing something which looks like a contradiction. If the "Four Horsemen" have been God's response to the deaths of these people- which is what I've been arguing- why, then, do they still feel the need to appeal for justice? Isn't God already giving them justice?
My suggested answer is that they recognise, and welcome, the events of ch6 as the start of God's justice.
But what they're really looking for is the completion of God's justice.
That would mean the full destruction of evil power on the earth, and that's when they'll be satisfied.
The response they get from God is that they're given fresh robes and they're told to "rest until...". That is, they're told to wait. They must wait, in the first place, until a further batch of martyrs has been "made complete", and is ready to join them.
But as a response to the cry "How long?", as a response to an appeal for justice, the instruction to "wait" also implies that they're not immediately going to get the full vindication they're expecting.
We can see that as an advance warning of what happens at the beginning of ch7, when angels come out and hold back the destructive "four winds of the earth", which have been blowing on the earth all through ch6.
In other words, the process of destruction has been "put on hold". This opens up a time of "truce" in God's relationship with the world. This is the same "truce" which I was discussing in the thread "Silence in heaven".
Then the Beast builds up his power.
God makes his own preparations.
And the net result is the second batch of martyrs mentioned in v11.
For the church of John's own time, in the period immediately following a great persecution. this message would have two effects. It would deliver the promise that the recent martyrs would be vindicated. It would also explain why the vindication might be postponed (and the church of John's time had to wait a couple of centuries before persecution finally ceased).
When using this book as prophecy for the future, the implication seems to be that the cycle of "oppression-followed-by-God's-vengeance" would actually occur twice in the course of the book.
The first appearance of the cycle would be the "implied background of ch6" followed by ch6 itself.
The second appearance of the cycle would then be the persecution associated with the Beast, and the final destruction of the Beast.